Channeling Rage, Rolling Calls & Building an Entertainment Empire | Ari Emanuel, WME & TKO

Right? This is like a caged tiger.

No, I'd rather—

You want to tell a story?

I'd rather have a conversation, because I'd rather just have a conversation than, like—

Okay, allright, go—

So tell the story.

So Dana's— Dana told you the story about Philippe Dumont, or Phil—

Okay, let me— let me back this up. We were just talking. The funniest story anybody's told on the podcast so far is Dana White, and he goes, "Let me tell you about this guy named Philippe Dumont," and he goes, "His name's—" he goes, "His name's Phil Dumont, he's from fucking Jersey," and then you're like, "That was a funny meme."

So here— here's— so we're— the UFC is taking off on Syke,right? Our term is up. This is when we had the reality show, and we had some fight nights, and so we call a meeting. I'm now representing them.

It's Dana, Lorenzo Fatida, myself, the head of Spike at the time, and, um, Phil, and I think one other person, his other co-CEO, whatever.

And we're pitching it. You gotta consider it a sport, it's not a reality show, etc. He goes— and I knew this was bad— he goes, "We made you. If you leave, you know, we'll get somebody else, and we'll— we'll replace you."

And Dana, you know, and Lorenzo, I— I just saw, like, knowing them at that point for about 3 years, they were just, like, ready to explode. And it was really getting heated. And you don't insult somebody for what they created.

As if you can just recreate Dana White. Impossible. And what Lorenzo put into it, their heart and soul that they put into it.

So the meeting ends, and I call him, like, "What are you doing?" Like, this isn't an easy ask we asked for. It was like we're doubling it. It is a sport. It was, like, their highest-rated thing. I represented WWE.

We had moved it back to USA coming off of that. That's when the lawsuit happened with Barry Dillar, when we moved it off USA, and— he didn't get mad, but he was boiling. And I know Dana when he boils, it's like, "Oh, you want to get competitive with me on a sport that I know and what we've done?

You think somebody can replace me?" And that's what the offensive thing was. This guy had no idea what he was doing. He couldn't start anything. He destroyed that company. Destroyed it. He let everything go that was of value and just bought bad stock and bought it back from, I think, $80 all the way down.

He made a lot of money. So, yeah, we just moved. Went— made the deal at Fox. Incredible deal at the time. The funny thing is, after we made the Fox deal, and that deal was coming up, and then the world— which is in the book— the world blew up.

We thought Fox had to make the deal just because they own these things, the RSN, the local station group, and how much play the UFC had on it, and what it was doing for the network. They were going to have to make the deal.

Look, you know, Rupert then sells that business to Disney. There's no need economically. They're on pause until that deal goes through. President Trump slows down the AT&T deal, so that went away. Comcast didn't want it. They had all the sports they wanted.

You're— you're talking about after. Now this is after you bought the UFC.

This is, like, 4 years after we moved the UFC.

So let's give some background. You— you signed Dana, but then later on you and Egon Durban buy the UFC for $4.2 billion.

Right, the cheapest.

And everybody— and everybody's telling you, it's like, "Oh, these guys don't— they're fucking idiots. They don't know what they're doing. They're overpaid." And then in the book you talk about the story of trying to sell the rights after the Fox thing.

Correct. We buy IMG. This is.

For 2.4 billion.

2.4 billion. And the thing about my life is I love puzzles, and my phone is a way to kind of put the pieces in place. I'm going to go way back, if you don't mind.

Let's go.

So I start this company, RAIN, with Joe Ravitch and Jeff Sine. This merchant bank. I'm raising money for them. I fly to Abu Dhabi. I get $100 million out of my friends in— in— in the UAE. I read this article from Mark Andreessen.

This is going to be way back. He comes to see me. We're just, you know, it's just creating serendipity, which you do in your life, and people that are successful, I think they do. They just have relationships, and they figure out how they fit into your life in a good way.

I ask him in that first meeting I meet him, one, what he does, and but two, I'd like him to put money into RAIN. We're raising a fund in the merchant bank. He says, "I'll do it. I'll do it with this guy, Egon Durban, and Nikesh, who was working at the time at Google."

In Google.

Who's now at Palo Alto now.

Palo Alto.

Yeah. We're recording with Nikesh next month.

Yeah. He's fantastic.

Yeah.

And through that, I meet Egon Durban. He buys a company that he sells to Microsoft for, um, Skype. For— he buys it, I don't know, from whatever, and that was one of his first big deals. Incredible. But in that conversation, he realized the value of content in a distribution platform.

We were talking about creating animation, and I— he was really creative. Cut to lunches and dinners. Teddy Forssman, who at the time had bought IMG— he had Forssman Little, bought— buys IMG— had gotten sick and was dying and— and passed away.

Brain tumor, horrible. Egon flies down and says, "Can I have lunch with you?" And we had now a great relationship because of the introduction that I made. And he goes, "I want to buy a piece of you, and I want to go after IMG."

I was trying to raise money around him. Like, Batista flew down to Brazil. Martin Sorell at WPP. I was trying to put the pieces together to raise the money. I thought it was going to be about $2 billion.

He says, "I want to do this, and I want to go after them." I said, "You're a PE firm. No chance you're going to be able to figure this out." He goes, "Give me your numbers. Give me 3 weeks.

I'll come back."

And we now have William Morris. That's a whole nother story. So Patrick and I meet with him. He brings his team down. We explain our economics, TV packaging, everything we do. Three weeks later, he comes down, makes me an offer that we could have signed as his.

We do the deal after a little— I could— I could not not negotiate.

Right.

It's in my nature. And we then go after IMG. So we then got a global footprint. US sport— we got movies, television, music, theater, books. Exactly what we wanted. And then we added events, sports, production, licensing. It was one-on-one.

Egon's vision. Incredible. I mean, we had the idea too. We just were trying to figure out money and the perfect partner. Long-term, cares about what you're doing. When he— when he gets involved in the company, learns everything about the company, brings incredible ideas to it.

He's an incredible investor and incredible partner. Once we had that, we came to him with this guy, Brent Richards, Mark Shapiro, and myself, and we said, "This is the representation business. In addition to that, because we have all the pieces that you need, we negotiate with all the networks globally for sports rights and for movie and television rights, we should put a piece of ownership on top.

Something we own in sports, because here's where the world's going with Netflix, etc., etc."

Where did you think the world was going?

Well, I— I knew they had a Nestlé business,right, where you— you buy subscriptions at Netflix, Hulu had started. They were eventually going to go to AVOT, which is advertising-based, and one of the things that keeps people engaged was sports.

So we needed to own— we needed to be in the sports space.

Okay.

I don't know if it was a year or two later, they had danced with it. Frank and Lorenzo about selling the business. About 2 years later, they came back and sold it. And we're opening it up again. We heard about it, and so we started getting into it.

This is where you call Lorenzo in the book, and you're like, "Just don't— just at least let me get a shot before he sells anything else."

Correct.

But you said he was— he would not commit. He would not say either.

He would not. And listen, Lorenzo and Frank Fatida are incredible negotiators. Coolest customers of all time. Tough.

But what you said to them before you get there, I love your line. You're like, "Okay, before you let him get off the phone, just, like, close your eyes, and when your eyes are closed."

Close my eyes.

"Just tell me what this— this incredible number."

What would make you happy.

"What's the number that you see when your eyes are closed?" And he's like, "It's a big fucking number, Ari, and it starts with a 4."

Right, exactly. Which is— I just needed the framing.

Yeah.

Right?

Were you shocked when he said it starts with a 4?

No, because I had a— because I had been involved with the company for 20 years. I knew where the network business is. I knew how much Fox needed it. I didn't know what was going to happen. And I— in my mind, I just did math about what the license fee would go to.

I asked Egon if it gets to this, and we start doing our— you know, running our numbers, what we needed to get to. So we're in that negotiation, and our biggest competitor was the Chinese, actually. I actually thought it was going to be Warner Brothers and Jeff Bukas, and I think a lot of people at TNT wanted it.

And Egon said, "No, it's Fox, because it's already on Fox. An easy transaction." I didn't think Fox would, but I did think TNT was going to possibly do it. But Jeff was— Bukas was downsizing to sell the business, so he didn't want to do thatright now.

So we got into it, and I think Dana at one point turns to them and says, "Please," he had an unbelievable relationship with me for 20 years. "I— I want to be with a guy that knows the business and loves the business."

And he knew I did. So we got it for a little cheaper than they did, but it was $4.2 billion at that point. But pull back. The hardest thing for Egon and myself at that point— and this is where I learned, I mean, he taught me everything here— we had Brexit happened.

All the banking system fell apart. And— and the great thing about Egon is he— he stayed— he stayed as steady as it could be, because he believed in where distribution was going, the value of sports. And we pieced it all together with Michael Dell doing the Preferred.

I mean, the— and I learned so much, and he took my hand and walked me through everything here. It was incredible. It was just brutal,right? Cut to— this is where I got sick, actually, physically sick, because it was so much stress.

We had put clients into it. We put all the chips in the middle of the table. $4.2 billion. People were saying it was the most expensive deal in the history of sports. We're crazy for doing this deal. Egon separately put money in KKR.

Henry and— and George were incredible, from the founders of KKR, of backing Egon and me in this situation. The world blows up. Rupert sells to Disney. AT&T again. And I thought I had a deal on the backside. If— if they weren't going to pay what we wanted them to pay at Fox, that AT&T was going to make it.

Now we're talking about television rights.

Television rights.

After the deal closes.

After the deal closes. And there's no place to go. There's no place to sell to, because Netflix wasn't in sports. Nobody else had really gotten to the level. We almost had a deal with Jeff Bezos and— and— and Jeff Blackwell.

And Amazon. That was, like, $260 million or something like that, and they pulled it.

Well, we had negotiated for 4 months, and they said, "Oh, it's got to go to this committee. No big deal." It's a rubber stamp. This was on a Saturday. We had our fight in Boston. And, um, by Monday, it comes in at, like, 1:40.

I'm like, I went crazy.

Did you go to Jeff? I think you—

No, no, I— Jeff— Jeff was at one of our parties. Lawrence Hatches, his— his wife now, says, "Come meet Jeff." I said, "He— he took money out of your pocket, man. He's not— you're not feeding your kids. Here's what happened."

You know, it's a huge bet. He didn't know anything about it.

Yeah.

Jeff Blackburn. This is my— this is my conclusion. I think I'm completelyright. Like, they just made a bad estimate. The people beneath him were above the key. And even though he realized, Jeff Bezos, that, yes, all the facts we had told him were true, he wasn't going to override his team.

Yeah.

And I understood that as a leader.

So what were they trying to do? They were just trying to save $120 million?

Well, they just didn't think we had the economic— they started doing math on our fight nights and our pay-per-views. I— I don't know what happened. We have nothing. We're pitching ESPN. Kevin Mayer's there, and John Skipper. And we're pitching.

Fox is now official, no. Mark Shapiro tells me, "You're lying to yourself. You don't— you're not listening to him. They have passed." And I am pitching my heart out. So we pitched Disney. John Skipper was just shining us on because we had so many clients booked as broadcasters and— and rights we sold them from IMG, but he was— he didn't like the UFC.

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It's still crazy that people call it, like, they think it's, like, a— like a— you just said they didn't like it. They used to call it back when Dana and the Fatida brothers bought it, they called it Human Cockfighting.

Cockfighting.

But even to this day.

That was John McCain.

Yeah, yeah. But that was, like, 20—

Yeah.

16 years old—

Yeah.

16 years before we are in the story or so. And even this, ESPN's like, "No, this is, like, a dirty business."

Yeah, John Skipper said it was like, eh.

Yeah.

You know?

And he's shining us on. He gets in trouble.

Let's not go into his trouble.

It's in the book.

It's— it's in the book.

He gets in trouble. He's out. Kevin Mayer is in place. They're going direct to consumer. He calls us, "We want the deal." The first offer was for shit. Mark and I work a weekend. And he— Kevin and I know each other for a long time.

We work on a letter. We send him what— what we think it's worth, why we think it's worth. They then come up, not exactly where we want, and we're— we're negotiating,right? Back and forth. He's sending stuff. We're giving him stuff.

Back and forth. We're still pitching other places. We go in to see Bob Backish, who's at Viacom now, and we're pitching him, "Let's reinvent Spike where we originally started. Make it into a sports channel." Exactly what AT&T wanted to do with TNT.

That's what the conversation was with AT&T, if they could have closed that deal. As we're pitching, I'm here. Mark Shapiro's there. Bob Backish is there. I get a WhatsApp— WhatsApp from Kevin Mayer. It says, "The price we want, you have a deal."

$300 million.

Yeah. I slide the phone over to Shapiro. He's pitching his heart out. I'm pitching my heart. But he was— at this point, he was pitching. He looks down. He's still pitching. I'm like, "Meeting over. We got to go."

Why not show it to these guys? Like, do you want to imagine?

No, we got to get into the car.

Because I had the deal I wanted, which was an incredible deal.

Okay.

Like, it hit the number that was in our pro forma.

Okay.

We had 4 months left until it was going to be a nightmare. We get in the car. They're in the plane. Igor, Kevin, and we're negotiating. We're going back and forth. And over WhatsApp, we're negotiating deals. There was 8 episodes on ESPN, the rest behind the wall on ESPN Plus.

They were just launching ESPN, etc. Cut to— we get back to the office. We call Dana. You know, we're all sweating bullets, you know, not healthy. And we say, "It's 8 episodes." Dana goes, "No, I'm not doing that."

I love him so much, and he has pushed me so hard and made me better, Dana. I go, "What are you talking about?" He goes, "I'm not doing it unless we have 10." And I said to him, "We have nobody elseright now."

He goes, "I don't care." I'm like, "I don't care? What are you talking about?" Cut to— I had no move. No move. I get Kevin on the phone. I go crazy on him.

This happens several times in the book, where they're like, "Okay, have you no move?"

I go crazy on him.

I'm going to just go crazy.

Crazy.

And so explain to people— I haven't read the book yet— what going crazy means.

Well, I said, "You motherfucker. You— I need 10 fucking episodes. I can't do this. You got to break stars. You're going to launch stars. You need stars for— to put it behind the paywall so that people buy the paywall.

You need it to be on ESPN so they understand the sport." And I just gave him this whole story, which was actually true. Slam.

Shapiro— I— I think he turned as white as this chair,right? And I said— and he's like, "We have nothing. What are you doing?" I'm like, "Come down. They're not going to blow this deal. They want the deal. We're making one move.

If we can't get it, we'll call Dana. We'll figure it out." Cut to— and to Bob Iger's credit, who was— you know, he started out in boxing.

Mm-hmm.

You know, he— he actually loves combat sports.

Yeah.

Bob Iger.

It was A— was it ABC? Where was he doing boxing at?

It was ABC.

Okay.

Yeah. Way back in the day.

Yeah.

Yeah. And unbeknownst to Mark and I at the time, Bob kind of told us later, he says to Jimmy Pataro— yeah, so Jimmy was on the plane too— "Just give them the 10. Figure it out on the schedule."

I didn't know that. Kevin calls back. We have the 10. Dana's happy. Boom. We're off to the races. And, you know, luck has it, Skipper got in trouble. But— and then we go in.

Hold on. Yeah, I was going to say, we're not off to the races yet.

No.

Because then you're like, "What about these nice little paper views I have?"

So then we go in for the celebration.

Yeah.

With Kevin and Bob, who were incredible partners. Like, fantastic. They have been incre— ESPN is incredible partners. They're incredible.

Hold on. You go into the celebration regifting.

Regifting. Yeah. It's a— it's a— it's a— it's a— I don't want to get over it. It's a Seinfeld episode.

But it's a legend.

Mary David the regifting. And we bring it in. It's 75 pounds or 100 pounds. And we're bringing the book in.

Hold on. The funniest part, so it's this book, that came— cameright to UFC, that I think Dana gave you, and you guys are on the phone making sure—

I mean, it's like 4 by 4.

Yes.

With some poor assistant. Like, "Make sure Dana did not say love you, Ari."

Exactly.

Cut to— we're just sweating bullets as we're going through the book. It wasn't— in 2 seconds, the assistant did a good job. We're in the meeting. It's a great meeting. And I go, "Fuck you guys." Right? What? You're going to make Mark and I go pitch our paper views when you're putting something behind the wall?

You guys are fucking assholes. Like that. Bob, who didn't know, "Kevin, did you know we could buy the paper views too?" "How about— how about— how about—" And Kevin's a really smart guy. But, you know, we got— like, getting— getting everybody over the hump on one.

He goes, "Bob Iger, incredible." Goes, "We'll get back to you on Monday." Monday comes. They buy the paper views. Incredible. 7-year deal. Incredible. They did incredible with it. We did incredible with it. It was— it was like a homerun for both.

But this is why I wanted to start with the story, because everybody says, "These guys are idiots. They're— they're paying— overpaying for buying UFC." This one deal, valuations almost— I think it was 7-year deal, it was like almost $4 billion.

Yeah.

Almost the purchase price of UFC.

Yeah.

So the— the first deal,right?

Well, it wasn't— it wasn't a kind of stamp of where direct-to-consumer was going.

It was or was not?

It was.

Was. Okay.

Everything that Mark Shapiro and myself, Egon Durban, had thought through was happening— was happening. We just had to get through some consolidation.

So.

And— and deal flow to get— get to it.

The second part of the deal, where they buy the paper views, that's over a few days. How long from the first time you approached them till the deal— the first deal was closed? Was that 2 years?

No. So we were coming to the end. We were putting— we were putting Fox off because we thought they— they were definitely on the table. We just wanted to see what else was happening. And then, to Iger's credit, he went after Fox, understandably, for direct-to-consumer and what he wanted Disney Plus and Hulu to be.

He comes over. We— Fox was there early, but then they sold.

Yeah.

And then it was about to beginning conversation to the end, 3 and a half months, I think. With— with Disney.

Yeah.

And ESPN.

Are most of the deals that you've done— like, we can go back to when you were just an agent, or we can talk about, like, you know, buying all these businesses.

Yeah.

With— with Egon. Like, is that normal? Is it usually— there's some?

Well, no. Like, if you're making a writer deal in television, which I started my business with, and you're staffing a show, you're in a— you know, from when— when it used to be upfronts and you'd go to New York and you'd be in upfronts on the May 28th-ish until staffing.

It was like a 3-week race to put as many writers on TV shows that had been picked up for the networks. The UFC deal and the IMG deal were probably

6 months to a year, each one of them.

And then the merger. I'm— there's a race to—

The merger took.

That— that was William Morris merger.

Yes. The 2003. They're laughing at you, like, "Are you going to buy us?"

Right.

That was one of my favorite parts of the book, where you go to speak to the Harvard professor, and they're like, "There's no such thing as a merger. This is a lie. There's one company."

Professor Nitten.

Yeah.

Incredible.

He's going to—

Actually, I think he's on the board with Josh Kushner at Thrive.

Yes.

He's in advisor. Thrive just reached out to me to see if I wanted to talk to him.

He's incredible.

Do you think that'd be— that'd be interesting to do?

Yeah.

But I just love what he told you. He's just like, "There's no such thing as a merger. Like, it's— there's an alpha, there's a beta, there's a concur, there's a concur." In fact, you— you met— you mentioned Egon Durban.

So, Michael Dell has been, like, a huge influence on me. He's, like, become a friend. I just had dinner with him, like, 2 weeks ago. I met at one of Dell's events this guy named Hock Tan.

Hock Tan, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The— the CEO of.

Broadcom.

Broadcom. And he said the— the funny shit, because he's done a lot of acquisitions, and he was giving advice to another tech founder there. And he goes, "Here's my most important piece of advice for you." He's like, "When you're acquiring something— somebody, make sure they know on day one," you know, Hock Tan's an extreme fucking personality.

And he goes, "Make sure you— they understand on day one that you are the concur and they are the concur."

Yeah.

And in your book, I love this scene you bring us to, where it's like 2003, private dining room in a restaurant, they laugh in your face about, "You're going to buy us? You— like, we're— we're a 100-year-old company, whatever the case is."

And then that deal takes, like, 4 years.

In that 4 years, Patrick and I were

stealing clients, weakening them. We were stealing agents, weakening them, and just listening to the street. Like, there were problems over there. A lot of dissention. And then the moment came. I mean, I screwed up the first meeting so badly, and— and Patrick was perfect in the first meeting, whether we had— where I went crazy.

Going crazy doesn't always work.

No. No. It pushed out the— the— the merger for 4 years. I played a horrible game of chess there. Just horrible. I'm at a, you know, Jewish holiday at an event to kind of break fast, and one of their most important agents comes up to me, says, "It's time to kind of get back into this."

And I meet with him. I meet with this woman, Jennifer Walsh, who ran their book division. And we reignited. And then it moved pretty fast. It was about

6 months, because they— we— we realized they needed it. And it was really a lot of disruption happening in there. A lot of dissent. And that dissent enabled Patrick and I to be the concurs in that situation. And then Egon coming into our company enabled Patrick and I to kind of economically incentivize everybody and then take control of the company.

Before we go back to the Egon part, though, I think this was very fascinating, because I didn't understand what was going on in the book, and then you guys closed this. And.

Closed the way more still.

Yeah. We're talking about the— the merger. Sorry. And you, at this point, you said you fucked up the first 2003 meeting, and then you kind of.

Fucked up is be— like, be gentle. That was— that was a gentle statement.

Okay. But you— you see that you learned a couple of years later, because then I forgot the guy's name, but he's like, "Oh, I want to be— I want to be chairman, and I want to be this," or, "I want to pick the name."

Jim Wyatt.

Yeah. And you were just like, "Yeah, sure. Sure. Sure."

So here's what happened.

Yeah. Explain this.

The deal closes, meaning William Morris votes to say yes. Endeavor votes to say no.

It's supposed to be a merger.

Right.

Which you know doesn't exist already.

Right. Right. And we— Patrick and I had done, you know, constantly talked to It. Nitten kind of helped us think through it. And even in them closing, a lot of their senior members that were equity holders were calling us and saying, "This is not going to work."

Cut to— the deals are approved, but we're not closed. And we realized, okay, we cannot go forward, mainly their side. One, there's guys that make so much money, Peter Grosslight and their music department, one of the biggest divisions, Mark Gitkin in their non-scripted business, not on the board, not really paid attention to.

We have to keep them to make the merger work. We go have— I go have separate meetings with both of them and let them into the plan, because they hated leadership.

And you told them the plan. So you already.

Telling my plan.

You already knew this.

We had brought them onto our— our side of the fence.

Okay. How long were you plotting before you executed this, though?

This is where Patrick was great, you know. I was so nervous about this. Like, this is going to be a nightmare if he's sitting there. And he had sent a memo out, "I have to be on all head-of-studio calls."

I— I didn't even understand what that meant. Like, I'm on a call with a studio head? I've been running this company with Patrick for X amount of years, and you want to be on my call? Like, no. I realized— and Patrick said, "When we're probably going to enter in after 2003, it's 4 years later, we're really going for it."

And I got really cold feet. And Patrick just, in the third-floor conference room, not physically, but slapped me in my face, saying, "What do you mean? You don't think you can take this guy out?" And so kind of woke me up, cold— cold water on the face.

And we get to it. And then everybody realizes on their side, Jim cannot be part of this. And we negotiated very clear terms of majorities, supermajorities, what happens for the board. They had 5 votes. We had 4 and a quarter votes for each one of us.

And

Jennifer Walsh and Patrick go to Jim Wyatt's consulieri and says, "Not going to work." It's 2008, 2009. The world is— we— we don't remember, but the world was coming to an end. My brother was in the White House, financial crisis, almost depression.

And nobody thought at the time you were going to write a check for $20, $24 million.

To buy out one guy.

To buy out one guy.

You got to buy out another one, too.

Yeah. Yeah. So he takes the deal.

He takes the $24 million. They convince him. He says yes. Check written. Erv Weintraub thinks he's getting the job once Jimmy's off. And I call him up. Patrick's on the phone. He said, "You don't have the votes because you need— you need 2/3, and you don't have 2/3.

Board doesn't want you." That was a little bit of a tussle. I won't get into the details. But he finally realized, "No-go." We write him a check for $20 million. So we're out $44,000,009. We lose a lawsuit on the building that they bought, because you're— you're— you're going to have to be sharing a garage with your direct competitor.

One of— one of— an agency. Like— likeright there.

Who the— would do that?

I don't know. That's— and then they were down.

That's 35. So now— now we're at 75.

Yes.

No, that's $80 million.

Yes.

Then we have to pay out bonuses either between $20 and $40 million. We were fucked. And, you know, getting a loan from a bank in the middle of '08, '09, I mean— and that's when Russell Goldsmith, who was part of Citi National, always had backed us when we— when we needed $1 million with no collateral.

And I just—

When you left— let's— let's talk about that real quick. When you left and started.

When we left ICM.

Yes.

The four of us.

And you started Endeavor.

So it was Tom Strickler, Rick Rosen, David Greenblatt, myself.

And your description of this startup company that now is worth a ton of money,right? I love— it says, "Four demons in a room rolling calls."

Yeah.

You had—

Nothing.

You had— you had a table and a phone.

And we didn't have— we couldn't collect the commission. We put it in escrow because we were getting sued by ICM for whatever reason. They thought— they thought we had— we had created a— a horrible situation. Their whole press around us created even a bigger company than it really was.

And so this guy at the bank, which was named— was.

Russell Goldsmith.

Yeah. He's the one back in— when you had nothing.

Nothing.

A million.

We had no money. None of us had money.

Yes.

He's— he was incredible. And then cut to, you know.

15 or 19 years later, whatever it was.

Right. And I said, "Listen, this dream is going to end if you don't—" and he did. And what happened after that is, as I recall it, we buy IMG. And I said to him at the time, "I don't know how we're going to repay, but we'll repay at some point."

He's trying to sell

Citi National and do a deal with the Canadian company. And he said, "Can I have some of your bonds?"

This is the $2.4 billion IMG deal?

Yeah. Some of Jimmy's.

Okay.

Yeah. Egon had— you know, he has his relationship. That was his thing. And I said to him— I tell him the story. And I said, "I need a, you know, $300 million worth," to his credit. He figured it out.

Egon did.

Yeah. And we gave Russell, and we— we paid him just on what he needed to kind of convince his deal that he was doing. And yeah.

I like how you frame this, because I was like, "These guys are idiots. They spent $44 million just on buyouts." You know, like, "No, we spent $44 million to essentially acquire a 100-year-old," whatever.

Company.

Yeah, with a huge roster. It's like, "We stole this from them."

Yeah.

It was— it was—

It was incredible.

It was the greatest deal that Patrick and I ever did.

Yeah.

It's not even close.

And, you know, the great thing, when we did the IMG deal, it was very tense when we were doing the deal. This is what the great thing— you only learn this over time. As— and, you know, I have young kids.

Young kids. I have two 30-year-olds, a 27-year-old and a 24-year-old, a daughter and three boys. And, you know, they're— they have ADHD like me, and they're like— and I think all kids have, when you're young, you just want to get going.

The only way you learn is through failure and success, and you got to— you got to go through things. We're in the IMG deal, so we're trying to do it, and it's us against Peter Turner. Peter Turner was bidding on it.

We were bidding on it. And they didn't want us. They definitely didn't want us. Me. For whatever.

Why would they know that?

I don't know. I don't remember.

Yes, you do.

I know. I— I swear to God, I— what the fuck do I give a shit? I was down. And I learned a ton from this. I think Turner's offer was $1.9 billion.

We offered $2.3 or $2.4 billion. And this was Egon's streak,right? Egon goes and says, "You're not going to remember this $500 million."

$400.

$400 million.

Yeah.

"You're never going to remember it unless they make an offer that they can't, like, bid up— keep on bidding us up. Let's just take it off the table in one foul swoop." Fucking genius. Like, incredible. I've not done these deals.

He's done a million of them. We did it. We got the deal. Shapiro told me before, "They don't want you." I said, "The Morris deals win. They cannot want us." But— and this was Egon's play, and it was perfect.

We had a huge fight, though. And this is what's also crazy about deals— you only learn afterwards. We thought we could not— this deal would not be successful because we were trying to secure the college guys running college, George Pine and the head of college, because they had this whole college business inside of IMG at the time.

American comp. And there was a— a pretty heated argument about if we don't get those executives, we can't do this deal because college is so important. Not that college went bankrupt, but college is worth, like, nothing inside the IM— was worth nothing at the end inside the— the— the IMG business.

Everything was the international business and everything we— we've done post that. And so, you know, again, that's why all the planning about what a deal does. Who knew Fox was going to sell? You know, you— all this says, you just got to constantly be working at stuff.

If you're not working, and there's going to be huge mountains you got to climb and huge failures. But if you believe in the strategy, you can get through it.

This is what you were saying. We had this incredible conversation before we started recording, and I was like, "We need to sit down and get some of this on tape," because this conversation is blowing my mind. You had mentioned earlier the advice that you gave to, like, the CEO of one of your companies now, and it was very similar to this.

Yes.

Because it's just like.

So we.

You can only do what's in front of you, man.

Yeah. You know, stop telling yourself a story. Brené Brown says, "Stop telling yourself a story."

Mm-hmm.

Right? That in her books, and one of the great things that she.

Who is this?

Brené Brown.

Okay.

She's got great books. You know, we all do it. We tell ourselves stories in our heads that we then believe. And those are not real stories. Those are just stories. They're— they're just not reality. And, you know, and— and he— my CFO of— of this new company we started, this events business called MARI, comes up to me, and we're going through the— the raise we have to do.

A fundraise.

A fundraise. And he's getting very traumatic about, "We have— don't get to—" And I said, "Stop. All we got to do is just keep on making the calls. We're going to get to it. We have a really good product, a really good story.

We're creating a great company. The world's going our way. The thesis isright." And he goes, you know, he takes a deep breath. I said, "He goes, 'You'reright.'" I said, "Just let's keep on making the calls and doing the thing and talking about our story.

People will come to it. It's only getting better, this story." And, you know, I try every day in my life, and one of the things I say in the book is not listening to that voice. We all have that voice, you know.

We're guilty about stuff. We can't spend enough time with our kids. Is thisright? You know. You know, it's not really worth it. That voice always wants to boot up negative or tell you something else.

That's one of the most interesting parts of the book, like, really the transformation you see, because the very first word, the very— the first sentence in the book is one word, and it's rage.

Right.

And then you see this change, this profound change, you go, and the book kind of ends in a very different way, which I want to get to. Before I get there, I want to go back to what Egon said.

He was like, "You're not going to remember the $400 million."

Yeah.

Which is one of the craziest lines in the book.

I don't know.

What ends up being true.

What investment bank or what— or a PE fund would ever say that. That's why he's incredible. Nobody says that. They— if that guy's bidding $1,900, let's bid $2,000. He sees a map that is so much different from everybody else in the game of where he wants to go.

But this is the important part. It's like what I always say. It's like, learning is not memorizing information. Learning is changing your behavior,right? You heard that. You didn't just memorize it. You change your behavior. Because I think it was the UF— the UCF or UFC deal.

It was another deal you're working on, and somebody internal on your own buy team was like, "No, no, let's, like, lower this." I don't remember what deal it was.

Right.

And you said, "Absolutely not." You quoted Egon.

Yeah.

And then you guys wind up getting the deal.

Yeah.

Because he's like, "You're not going to remember saving whatever, let's say it's $2,000,000, I don't remember what it was."

$200 million, $100 million.

Yeah. But you're going to remember— you said in the book.

Losing.

You're going to remember fucking— you didn't say losing. You said fucking up the deal.

Yeah. Let's give a given. You're going to have to work really hard. Even if it's the best strategy, even if you'reright about everything, there's going to be really bumpy roads. That's just called business.

Life.

Life. So if you give yourself, "I'm going to work my ass off. I'm going to get through all the hardships," if you want the deal and you believe the strategy, you're like, "The $100 million, the $200 million, the $150," no.

That's— that's— that's not what the game is. The game is, "We're going to have to really work hard. There's going to be some failures. There's going to be some things we think about that are notright, things we think about that we didn't even realize that are even moreright.

Let's just get through it." And, you know, I think when Disney was buying Cap City, I might be wrong about this story, but I think I'mright. I think they valued ESPN zero. It was the most valuable asset. When— when— when Tom Warner and his partner, which I gave to Joe Ravenshack Goldman because they had done the yes deal for the Yankees, were buying the Red Sox, I think they— at the time, they had the cable portion of that deal in for $75 million.

It was the most important thing. Not— not that the team now is good. At the time, that was the most important asset. So all these things that we think we know and we do all this work on, you don't want to go crazy, $2 billion more than this person, but you know you're going to work hard.

There's going to be things you project that are wrong and things you project that are wrong but make it even better, and you're just going to have to work through it. That was a great lesson that Egon gave us.

And I think something that I don't even think I understood about the book, even though it's in there, but I'm deeply understanding about you now talking to you, is just, like, this idea was, like, "I'm just going to stay flexible and play the game that'sright in front of me."

It's the David Geffen line he gave to me when we were trying to do William Morris. I should have listened to him way beforehand. David Geffen said.

Let's talk about this.

So David Geffen says to me.

You're—

Hold on. Let me— let me set this up. Because you're, like, freaking out. I love how in the book— so I— I— I have the audiobook version, which I highly recommend. I have this book, obviously the hardcover book, and the Kindle book.

Allright.

People listen to this. You need the bare minimum. Order the Audibleright now.

Bob Aldberg's incredible.

I've never read a book like this. Like.

Oh, wow.

The amount of— just, like, you're just unbelievably honest, and you're just, like, you— you share, like, "Yes, I'm very successful and smart and driven, but I'm also— I got some fucked up shit too." Like, we all do. And I think we do a disservice where we try to pretend we're perfect.

We're all imperfect human beings.

Yeah.

And you're just, like, "Here's it is. Deal with it. You probably have this too."

We're trying to—

David Geffen.

We're trying to grow the business.

And you're terrified because you have this thing is, like, "I don't feel safe because if Endeavor is not safe, I'm not safe."

Right.

So, you know, he was— he's been an incredible advisor to me and— and kind of mentor to me. And he says to me, "Just merge with William Morris, get in traffic, and get hit." And, you know, ultimately he was saying, "Believe in yourself.

Believe in your partners. You're going to win that battle." And he wasright, you know.

And the way I interpret it too is, like, the worst thing you could do in a world that's changing is stand still.

Still.

He's like, "Don't stand still."

Yeah. And that's like— that's when— when we were in the— when we were in the conference room and I was so nervous about merging, and Patrick slaps me in the face, not physically, but emotionally, like, "You don't think we— we could win this battle with them?

Like, there's people like us. Our culture is better. We're going to win." And it kind of just put a, you know, water in my— a cold water in my face. And he wasright, you know.

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I want to go back to— to Geffen. So, I just flew back. We have a mutual friend in Jimmy Iovine,right?

Yeah.

And the crazy story is, I'm in England with Jimmy. We were doing this event together, and I was interviewing him on stage, and then he's like, "Hey, just fly back with me." So I flew with him on his plane from England to— to LA.

We're on the plane. We're sitting next to each other. He pulls out a book. I pull out a book. It's the same book. And so he— I was like, "Dude, what do you think?" And I was like, "Do you know Ari?"

And he's telling me story after story about you.

Right. That's another guy I just called out of the blue. I'd read about him. It's kind of like my phrase that I like to do is creating serendipity. You know, you read about somebody. Same thing I did with Michael Rapino, one of the great executives of all time.

The company was worth $200 million. I read it in the Wall Street Journal. I'm on vacation. I get back. I hand it to my assistant. I said, "Get me this guy on the phone." This is 25 years ago.

And we meet, and we become fast friends. He puts me on the board.

We're going to talk about this because you call it, I think, the Ari— not Ari Gold, the Ari Emanuel Rolling School of Entrepreneurship that you made for yourself, which I thought was one of the best ideas in the book.

But I want to tell you what. There's two things that Jimmy told me, and I got to ask you about. I go, "Is Ari really like this?" He's like, "If he needs something from me, he will call me 16 times in a row."

Yeah.

I want to talk about if that actually works because it's in there.

Yeah, that's.

Which is shocking to me. But we talk about Geffen because he says that David Geffen gave him some of the best advice ever. He's just like, "Hey, you know, me, you kind of do the same job. You just made $500 million.

I'm doing the same thing, but I make a lot less. I'm thinking about starting my own record label."

Really.

And he said— David goes, "He goes, 'Definitely do it.'" And Jimmy Iovine goes, "Why?" He goes, "Because there's a lot more people dumber than you in that own record company."

Listen, he's one of the great consignees of our business. He has a sobering look at the business and cuts through it, like, in one or two lines. And.

Jimmy told me this because he still goes to David for advice.

Of course.

He goes, "David will tell you the fastest path from here to there." And Jimmy's point was just, like.

You can't always get there emotionally.

No, because it's your business.

Yeah.

So you— you overcomplicate things in your head. So you go to David and you're like.

Right. The voice is going on.

Yes. And— and you're like, "Oh, I have this big problem." And he goes, "Ah, fire that guy. Buy that company."

Yeah.

"Marry that girl."

Yeah.

And he's just, like, "There's just one thing."

Yeah.

There's not these eight, ten things.

Yeah.

It's like, "That thing."

Yeah.

"And just do that." And he did it with you. He's like, "Just buy a fucking— merge with an agency."

Yeah.

"Don't sit still."

I don't know how he learned to do that. He doesn't listen to that voice in the head. He kind of just— he sees it, does it, and he— you can always call on him. You'll give him the situation.

Two seconds later, you're off the phone. And probably it took me years, but he wasright. Just get one of those companies. I think we got theright company, but he wasright. You know, you just get in traffic, get hit.

You're going to work harder than anybody. There's going to be good— he didn't say this, good and bad, but you'll survive. You're good. And that's kind of what he was saying.

So a lot of the guests that come on the show, then they ask me after, like, "Hey, can I help you get anybody, like, who— who's on top of your list?" And David Geffen is towards the top of my list.

He's like, "Oh, that's never going to happen." He's like, "Too way too private."

He'll do that. No, he'll do it.

Oh, well, then maybe I'll give you a task.

I'll call himright after. I'll give him one.

Yeah. So I obviously knew who you were because of the Entourage character. And then— but then when I heard you writing a book, I was like, "Roll the calls." I was like, "I don't even know what that means."

So explain why you named the— the book Roll the Calls.

When I'm walking into the office and I'm down the hallway and my office is down there, I just start screaming, like, to my assistant, "Roll the calls." Like, you know, people have called me. I want people. And they just start hitting calls.

My whole life, as I just said, how I met Mark Andreessen that then led to Egon Durban that then led to, you know, this, that, and the other thing, or it's a puzzle. And the way you get into the puzzle for me is on the phone and then meeting people after.

You read something, you call somebody, you meet somebody. And they— in a good way in my life, they have created serendipity, and I've created a world that way. And rolling the calls is how I do it. And when I get into my car and I'm on my phone, I call my office, "Roll the calls."

And we're just rolling calls.

I just heard you do this when you were in the bathroom.

Yeah, yeah. Like, "Yeah, let's— let's roll the calls." And I don't know where it's going to lead. Hopefully, if I'm good at my job, and I think this is what's great about being an agent that's taught me in business, like, creating a TV show or a— a movie that you put together, that's creating a puzzle.

And as great as Marty Scorsese is or Jonah Hill or Aaron Sorkin or— or Seth MacFarlane or Tyler Perry, my list of clients, they're incredible artists. The job as an agent in the entertainment business, you have to be an incredible new idea businessman for them on their deals and how to put a movie together and— and get through conflict.

Because there's always conflict. I've taken that skill set and now, through great teachers, Egon, Nitten, other people, and just witnessing people, I call people when I'm in situations. I can take that same skill set and apply it to our businesses.

And that's how I live my life: rolling calls, doing my thing, David Geffen, getting in traffic, getting hit, and not being scared that I was scared. I— I was emotionally scared. And partners have helped me through that. Like, am I— because I'm dyslexic, am I smart enough to do this?

I'm now— I don't have that fear anymore. And that I can get through these deals and be creative and looking at what Egon does, looking at what Michael Dell does, looking at— they're incredible artists of how to run a company, how to build a company.

And I think it is a great art form.

Michael Dell's worth, I don't know, like, a quarter of a trillion dollars. And I'm telling you, he's so— he's still underrated. He's unbelievable.

No.

This exactly— it's funny you use the word puzzles because I— that's what I ask him about, is— and that's the way he looks like a business, like a— a giant puzzle.

He's incredible.

And it's just, like, the guy started his company in '19 with $1,000 in his dorm room.

Yeah.

He's in his 60s. Look what he's doing today.

And he's a monster.

But he's also, like, unbelievably— he's got a very, very friendly UI. He's, like, spent hour— well, spent— I spent hours. Like, there's no reason for him to spend hours with me teaching me stuff. But he does. He's just—

I'm proud of him.

He's learning something new. But he's a remarkable human being.

Those people that you— like, Mark Andreessen, they're— they're artists at what they do. And here's what I don't like in the worldright now. For some reason, a certain part of the population thinks that that is a horrible thing, what these great businessmen have done.

Like, they think it's a no-no that they've created great wealth for people, great wealth for the country, great— great, and that in some way it's not good. And I love capitalism. I think it's an incredible—

I'm the son of a Cuban immigrant.

Yeah.

Like, I literally—

Yeah.

My son is Israeli actually.

I— I tell this story over and over. Like, it's not a joke. I grew up in South Florida. I literally— I remember being fucking nine years old and meeting people that came over here on rafts. And all— just, like, "Okay, well, how many people go to the end of South Florida and put your— you have four kids?"

Yeah.

"And when— when they were small, put them on a raft to Cuba."

Yeah.

"That's a one-way trip."

Yeah.

"It comes in this direction."

Right.

"Why? Why is that happening? What's going on?"

Right.

Like, I knew instinctively, like, this is, like, a very, very special— like, very, very special place.

Yeah.

I— I don't get it.

And it's like, I want to learn from these people. So let me go to the next question I have for you. Explain this, like, Ari Emanuel Rolling School of Entrepreneurship. When did you get the idea and how long have you been doing it?

It just started. Like, one of the first ideas about this, my boss at this company, Innertalent, this guy Bill Block, who was running it, he was a really curious guy. And he read this book called— and we talk all the time now, still.

Still sits there.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

And he read this book back in the day. I think this was '92. "Life After Television" by George Gilder. I read the book, very short book, thank God.

Big dyslexic.

And I called George. I don't know how this came about in my life that I would just read an article, call the guy, people would pick up, but it just happens to me. And I— as you know, as you read in the book, if they don't call me, I call them and call them and call them until they do call me.

Sometimes people think it's stalking. If you can use some levity and some humor and some self-deprecation, you get away with it and don't get committed to a jail. And he started talking to me about the business. That little thing has led me to realizing when we started the business in '95, there's going to be more television, and it's about how— how distribution is going to change.

Same amount of people making content, maybe some new content, which we now have, podcasts, social media, et cetera, you know, microdramas, and that content creators were going to be more valuable. That premise was all I needed to start the company with my three other partners who had— who believed in the same thing.

And that just continues. My relationship with Michael Rapino, one of the great executives of all time, grew up $200 million company now to $40, $50 billion. I don't know what he's done. It's incredible. Mark Andreessen. I mean, it's just my life.

That's how I live my life. And those are the puzzles I create. And I then— the great thing about it, I get to always tap into them and call them if something's coming up and take them to lunch and listen to them.

You know, same thing. That's how I met Elon. He was— I read about him starting a car company. I didn't know the guy. I called him. We met. And we have an incredible relationship, like most friendships. I don't agree with him all the time.

I do agree with him. I learn a ton. I disagree a ton. Life.

What have you learned from Elon?

He gave early on where AI was going. I mean, he— he— he was talking about AI in 2007, what it was going to be. And then he enabled, one, sports was going to— life was going to be important.

Definitely, sports was going to be important. He talked about that, sort of to Egon. And then he said, "The only thing that can't be disintermediated by AI is life in the entertainment business." I mean, he didn't talk about anything because I was asking about the entertainment.

And that's what gave, you know, the— the idea behind MARI. And so we're now building a pretty big business in the life.

But how is MARI related to TKO?

Separate company.

Separate company.

Separate company.

But they're doing similar things, though.

Yeah. One's in sports, pure.

Yes.

And one's in live events, from art to car auctions to holiday events to tennis events. It's just the live events. Michael Rapino is just in music.

Okay.

TKO is just in sports,right? It's a sports, you know, live business. And MARI is an events business. There's some sports assets. We have the Miami Open, the Madrid Open in tennis. We have participatory sports, Escape from Alcatraz. We have a collectible business in— in Free's and Barrett-Jackson and this thing called Collect Account, which is in the Pokémon space.

And so it will be everything live events on a global basis.

How do you split your time? Is it— are these the two main companies?

These are the two companies.

You're spending almost 100% of your time?

These are the two companies.

Okay.

Yeah.

And, like, what's the splitright now? Because one is obviously huge and growing, but this one's brand new.

Well, times are a crazy thing. Like, you— yeah, I spend a lot of time on both, you know, and yeah, I just— I just work.

Okay.

I have my clients. I still do my clients because it's important for TKO and everything else. I had been doing all the work around MARI, so it's what I've been doing anyway in— in TKO.

Okay. I want to go back to the very beginning of the book, the very beginning of your career. Basically, the start of your— your new life,right? That took you on the path to where you are today. You can be traced back to when you were 24 years old.

Right.

You see this job listing. I'm going to be assistant to a talent agent. You don't even know what a talent agent was.

Well, I kind of did. This guy, Mike Mendelson, told me he— like, I landed in New York and I— and I— friend of a friend, and— and he says, "What William Morris is." You know, I'm from the Midwest.

I didn't know. I had no idea what an agent— I didn't know they existed. And for whatever reason, it kind of, like, that seems like I would be good at that. I could do that.

Well, there's a handful of things that I took away from that section of the book that I think are really important that you kind of used your entire life and continue to develop. It was, like, one, Robbie had the same kind of school of entrepreneurship, but he did it through, like, dictation and writing letters of the great minds.

Yeah.

And they— they carry on, like, this discourse, which is— and I was like, "Oh, shit." Ari does that later on.

Yeah.

With his—

Differently.

Yeah, with his phone,right? The other thing that— that I thought was very interesting, too, is you had somebody older, really successful, telling you, a young man, "Hey, I— I can't serve you anymore."

Yeah.

"You have insane talent and drive. Move west and go build your own empire."

Move west. Yeah.

And then one of the third things that's most important is you got to listen in on his calls.

Yeah.

And this guy used to be at the top of his game,right? And then now you have this younger— this is a tale of the oldest time— younger, hungrier kid that's coming for what you want. And you're listening to his calls.

And he was the king. Mike— Mike, even though he's younger and hungry.

Ovits, we're talking about.

He— Mike Ovits. You know, there's Lou Osmond on Mount Rushmore.

Yes.

And Mike Ovits on Mount Rushmore. And Mike Ovits created what nobody had created. He created the packaging business and the movie business, saw what all these other guys— and there was lots and lots of agencies, but he— four guys or five guys, I— I don't—

It's the same stories you—

Right.

And—

20 years later.

And he had Ron Meyer and Bill Haber. It was Patrick and I. And Lou Osmond had Jewel Stein. And they had a vision for what the movie business and TV business could be. Remember, they made a fortune because of Bill Haber and the television business.

There's a parallel here to your own career because people are like, "Oh, this UFC thing is, like, dirty. It's, like, low class or whatever. It can't be a good business." You're like, "You don't know what you're talking about."

The CAA talked about— they were called, like, the TV guys.

Yeah.

It was a pejorative.

Right. And— and they made the transfer.

Yes.

But here's the one thing. I— I don't know if you— I got to go back and listen to your episode with Mike. And this is my conclusion. I had no idea I would actually— I should call Mike about this.

Like, he takes over the Coke business.

The advertising business.

The advertising business for Coke.

Yes.

Now, Mike Ovits, in the world of business and entertainment, was at the echelon. I just didn't understand why Mike at that point— because he could have raised any amount of money he wanted— like, didn't go buy gray— gray advertising back then.

It was a really big advertising. I don't know. I think they handled Coke. I would— I might be wrong. Maybe it was McCann. Like, that would have changed the— added a new leg to the stool. And I don't know if he just didn't think about it because he thought about a lot of stuff, or he didn't want to do it, or he thought the economics were not going to beright for him.

But that would have completely changed his business and then led to, as David Geffen said, more traffic that he— you never know what it would have led to. But that's how I always thought about that. Like, why didn't he buy an advertising agency and do more clients unless he— I don't know.

And that's, for us, what Patrick and I did, and Mark Shapiro and Egon, we realized, "No, we want to own an asset."

Yeah.

And that— it— maybe it was in the back of our heads looking at what he did that he didn't do it. And I think there's 90 reasons why he didn't do it, or something must have been because he's too smart not to have done it.

We— we concluded we should do it for where the world was going for us at that point in time.

Go back to what were you hearing, though? What was the difference? You're on the phone call. You—

On Robbie Lanson's phone call?

Yeah. You're listening to Ovits young and hungry. He's stealing, like, Pacino. He's stealing all these clients from your boss. What are you hearing in these phone calls? The difference between Robbie and Ovits at this time.

Well, one, I never heard what he said to clients. Like, his salesmanship and Ron Meyer's salesmanship and Bill Haber's salesmanship was far superior and backed up by everything they did: packaging movies, forcing studios to take them. Different day and age because he had the DVD business and— and all that.

And he was selling— I can only conclude because I wasn't on the calls or in signing meetings— that they were a packaging machine and it's going to be beneficial. Remember, if I'mright, I think I am, Jewel Stein, when Lou Osmond was there, they were signing people because they had a different— they figured out a tax loophole for clients to save them money, and that's why they signed a lot of people.

Mike had this pitch— again, I don't have all the facts— that his— his ability to package was unprecedented for movies and television. And it was true. That's his genius and Ron Meyer's genius, this whole packaging thing that they created and the production business for stars and creating projects for them that they don't not only have to be an actor, they can be a producer.

And it was like nobody had thought about that. And he did it. And he— and he actually had done— he did it, you know? And so he recreated the business.

Yeah. The first time I met Mark Andreessen, I asked him because, you know, he's— he's open about, "Hey, I designed A16Z on CAA."

Hey.

And I go, "What do you think Ovits's superpower is?" He goes, "He's the world's greatest agent." And I go, "What does that mean?"

What?

And I go, "What does that mean?" And he goes, "That means he's the world's greatest salesman."

Yeah.

And so even today.

He's incredible.

I'm telling youright now.

Yeah.

He's like one of the greats as an agent. I mean, I worked directly for Bill Haber, and— and Mike was there.

Yeah.

But don't discount Ronnie Meyer. He was incredible.

Yeah.

As smooth as it got.

Anytime you see somebody that's, like, world-class about to do it, their team is going to be world-class too.

Yeah.

It's hard.

The partner's incredible.

It's 100%.

But I— I need to get to this crazy transformation because, you know, I was— I was seeking your advice. I'm obsessed with, you know, people that you have a few decades on me, so, like, you know where I'm going.

And I asked, I was like, "Hey, what were you doing when you were my age?"

Don't have the guilt that I had.

Oh, wow.

About not— not seeing your kids.

Let's— we're going to— we can talk about everything publicly.

Yeah.

I'm fine with that. But my thing about you is, like, you're like a more relaxed version than I even thought from the book. Definitely still. I heard you on the phone, so it's like, you know, but, like, you're— I thought, you know, I was going to get, like, another Ari Gold or something like that.

No.

Bookstars Rage talks about bundle of anxiety, bundle of fear, not feeling safe.

Right.

Being angry, getting hit by a fucking car and almost dying.

Right.

And then realizing, "Hey, this isn't a dress rehearsal where I think is the most important part, one of the most important things happening in your life." Like, when did you decide, "Hey, I— I got to make this change because, like, if I keep living life like this bundle of uncontrollable rage, like, I'm actually going to have an unhappy life"?

You know, there's a character in there called Dr. Calm, which is my shrink. And he— he had this concept called the Ego Project. You know,

we all think we can control certain things and, you know, you have this thing about your legacy, all these things that are bottled up in the ego. And he was trying to break it down and— and— and teach me, "There's your plan, and then there's somebody else's plan."

And it started with the car, like, it's not a dress rehearsal.

How old were you when you got in that car?

I was 32.

Okay.

Right? And, you know, when you're 32, you— my career's going great, life's great, I'm physically great, you know? And you just realize it could end like that. And that starts a chain of reactions in your brain, like, you have to constantly remind yourself.

Getting sick with the UFC, like, "Oh, no, you're not invincible. You're vincible,right? You're human." And, you know, you think you can control all this stuff, and if you play the chess match out in your head, you're going to win.

And when you don't, you— that's when you get angry. I just kept on working on it and realizing and wanting to get better and not enjoying the rage all the time, you know? Just, like, you get older and you get tired of it.

At what age did you start to feel tired of the rage?

Well, here's what I realized. I want to be real— really successful. I realized that rage and anger and the way I was operating the business, you could never get to really big heights.

Why?

I wasn't happy with how I was living my life. And, you know, one of the things that the book does, it tells— I— I'm— it— like, there's— there's JR who helped me write the book. Like, there's three weeks.

I cannot— but he remind— he showed me early when we were doing this, like, "This would happen in these three weeks. This would happen in this month." Like, I'm like, "How the fuck did that happen?" You know, like, all these things, you know, going to visit my daughter when she was in Montana Academy and in the mountains of Utah and then coming back, and then this thing deal happened, and then that deal happened, or— it's just, like, it's insane.

And that's not— I wasn't— I wasn't enjoying it,right? Even though I was getting through it, I wasn't enjoying it. And that just took a process. I— I saw the toll it took on my marriage, which is, you know, things get left behind.

I— I didn't— I don't think— if you ask my kids, and I think my wife, my ex-wife, and I scored a touchdown with four incredible kids. That was great, but I didn't think I could progress, which I wanted to, and the company could do what it did and— and where I wanted to build it was possible in the state I was.

And so then I just went on a path of, like, meeting people, meeting people that were going to help me realize how to get— become a better person. And that took

shamans and, you know, other means to get there that were different from Dr. Calm. That enabled me to realize, you know, the world's been around for 3,000 years. I'm still competitive, but there's a different way to be competitive.

I never realized, like, going on a vacation could be better than not going on a vacation. I thought it was like, you know, "So bad for you." Jeff Bezos says to me, I don't know, a lot of years ago, he says to me, you know, "You just have to realize when you're on the field, be on the field.

But it's okay to get off the field. And when you're off the field, get off the field. And don't play the chess match. Don't be scared of getting off the field." You know, it's not a bad thing because it makes when you're on the field even— you're more potent.

And I never used to do get off the field.

So eyes open and this is.

Constantly working.

Yeah.

And that— that plus doing 5MEO and other things that helped me realize this whole thing about legacy, which is bullshit in my mind, or the Ego Project, or any of these other— however you want to box it.

The reason I— I've been telling all my friends about this book too is just, like, how brutally honest you are because, like, you're one of the most successful people in the world at what you're doing at the time.

And yet in the book, at the same time you're the most successful person in your field, you're also searching for, like, trying to fix what's wrong with you, what you feel is wrong with you inside.

Yeah.

To the point where you're like.

Makes you better.

You do this meditation retreat. And I want to read this part of the book. You do this five-day meditation retreat in, I think, India.

India.

And there's this guy you name in the book as the leader. And this is— I'm just going to read, you know, a few sentences.

Jennifer Walsh from— who helped get rid of Jim Wyatt turned me on to this guy.

So after you shift somebody in the back, you need to go on a five-day meditation retreat. But he says you can't live in a world of war and anger and also in a world of beauty. You must choose.

Do you want to live in a beautiful state? And then the last thing— one of the last things he says to you, he says, "Do whatever you do for the joy, the artistry, or else don't do it. Then in serenity, move on."

Great line.

At that time that you heard that line, though, were you in a place where you could actually accept that advice? Or did it take a while?

Well, day one, it was like going over my childhood, dyslexia, finding identity or the lack of identity, trying to get identity and what that means, fear of being found out, all what that caused. My mother was incredible that she got me to read and— but, you know, she had her own issues and about from her parents and— and we're incredible people because of my two parents, my brothers and I.

And— but there's— like all of us, my kids are going to have to go through therapy because of me,right? And this guy said— said to me, and Dr. Calm, still, I was seeing him, said, "You're really successful. Stop worrying if you're going to be found out and think that you're stupid.

You're not." Dr. Calm said it in a different way. In the '50s, really successful people were really great businessmen, really smart people with a conceived of businessmen as opposed to people that can read. And I had this whole image because of how I brought up in education.

The only smart people are people that can read. And I thought, "There's all these people that are smarter than me because they had all these other things." And I just got calmer in this process of, "You're not stupid and you're— you don't have to worry.

You're not going to be found out that you're stupid. You're actually— what I do is an art form and comfortable with what that is as opposed to thinking I should be all these other things. Just be comfortable here."

And that doesn't take away from any of my aggression, any of my desire to be successful, any of that other stuff. And that took a long process.

The one thing— you— you did a lot of things to try to, like, alleviate this and try to figure, like, the inner world of— of yourself out, but.

Brené Brown also reading that book, you know, about anxiety and— and fear of exposing yourself, I— I— and kind of being vulnerable and being able to say what I'm saying.

Is this— is this rooted in, like, insecurity?

Yeah. Completely.

Oh, completely.

Remember, I came from a family. My father was an immigrant. My mother is the first generation. From my father's side, we're the first generation. Education and that was everything. I wasn't great at it. I couldn't read,right?

Yeah. And you held it— held onto that for decades after.

Decades.

Sometimes it never leaves. And this is very common in, like, the— the top entrepreneurs. Somebody that's, you know, built over a $100 million company from scratch, dec-a-billionaire himself, still dealt to the young. I remember, like, talking to him one time, and it was kind of obvious what his answer to this question I was about to ask him was.

This is in private. And I was like, "Wait a minute. What's— what's your inner monologue like?" And he goes, "Why do I suck so much?"

Listen.

And I was like, "There's nobody objectively, nobody on the planet thinks you're not talented."

Oh, that's why you have brothers and sisters?

Yeah. I have an older brother and younger sister.

And where are you in that mix?

I'm a middle child.

Okay. So if you've read about this, the oldest child has a point of view on stuff and how they act. The middle child has their point of view. The baby has their point of view. If you're a single child, there's a whole different psychology.

And I believe all those things. And we all have those issues to battle through. And I was the baby. My brother Zek, my mom, smart one, Ram, who's very smart, the artist, and I was the other one. You know, and so you— you— that sits on you.

Yeah.

You know?

Right.

And I say it all the time. I just want my mom to love me, you know, for one week more than she loves you guys.

Tell me about the— the— the use of, like, psychedelics. I think you call it the toad in the book.

Oh.

That you have.

5MEO.

Okay. 5MEO, Jesse.

That's the best— that's the best psychedelic in the world.

Okay. But this is literally the— the thing that.

That's the turning point.

Okay. So talk about.

So a friend, again, guy I met, he had done this psychedelic with this guy in— in New Mexico. And he explained it to me, you know. And I said, "Okay." And most of the time when I do my health stuff, and I consider this a health thing and an emotional thing, which is part of health, I always call my brother Zek.

And I asked him the very simple question. I said, "Can it kill me?" And he said, "No." So I said, "Okay, I'll do it. I'll try it." So I go to New Mexico with Stodd, my wife. At the time, we weren't married.

What's going on in your life?

At this point?

Yeah. So you just went through a divorce.

I'm divorced at this point.

You're in a new relationship.

Yep.

Your business is— isn't it— is this COVID? Isn't your business fucked up or no?

22.

Okay.

2022. And it was, you know, we're kind of coming out of it and Five Island had already happened with the UFC, and we were just starting to come back a little bit. So with 5MEO, which is toad or boof or whatever they call it, you smoke it, you read a poem, which is horrible.

You have to read a fucking poem. I'm dyslexic. I'm like, "What the fuck? I can't get away from this reading thing." And— and you have to read it out loud. Oh, Jesus. And so you go offline. Offline. I don't know how to describe it other than I got another way to describe it.

For 10 minutes. And then you're tripping for, what, 30 minutes. And you realize how small we are in the world. And it's like, how meaningless in a weird way. Not in a bad way that you don't want to work or anything, that you're not aggressive or any of that stuff.

You just realize, "Okay, I understand what it is." And then you want a meaningful life and not just, "Okay." And that, like, more than Dr. Calm, not in a bad way, just helped me with the Ego Project, realizing legacy's bullshit.

You just want to be here, be happy, do the best thing you can, and enjoy your life while working really hard and have a purpose. And that just started a process for me, experimenting a little bit. And I think I'm calmer now.

Not that I'm not. I mean, most people in my office would say that I'm not calm.

This is the part I need to understand, though, because Mark Andreessen, who you mentioned a couple times, he was on the show.

He's incredible.

But one of the things that he talked about on the show was that he hates that everybody in Silicon Valley is trying to get everybody to do psychedelics because then the founders won't work as hard.

That's not true. That's completely— that's— that's—

So.

That's complete bullshit.

Okay. So this is what I didn't understand from the book.

I have this argument with Mark.

Okay.

Yeah. I mean, it's all bullshit.

Okay. But tell me the difference. Okay. So the difference in your work. It— as a person, it made you more— maybe more content, more happy, like.

Yeah. You know, I'm not sitting thereright now worried about what my legacy will be. It's going to be what it's going to be. There's going to be good parts. There's going to be bad parts. As we talked about previous taping, who is the most important businessman 1953?

What company? What's the guy?

I named him and then you're like, "Okay, you're not supposed to know that."

Yeah.

You're the only person in the world that knows that.

Yeah.

Alfred Sloan of GM.

No one—

No one gives a shit.

Right. And he was the god.

Yeah.

Right? Barely people know who Lou Wasserman was. So that's okay. Presidents, some entertainment people, some singers, some authors, very few people are going to have— probably people that did bad things— bigger legacies,right? Really? That's what we're— that's what we're doing this for.

I'm doing this because I love it. It brings purpose and meaning to me. Great. Nine months ago, a year ago, I created this company with Mark Shapiro and other people. MARI. We're going for it. We have a vision for it.

You're not half-assing things because you did DMT.

Zero half-assing things,right? There's still plenty of calls. Up at 5 o'clock this morning. Workout in the office. Did a— a— a— another podcast. I got you. I'm going to Montecito for something. Working my tail off. The last three weeks have been incredible.

My— until the end of the year, as my wife said to me, she goes, "What are you?" You know? But I— if I didn't think it was meaningful to me and personally and I enjoyed it, I wouldn't be doing it.

As hard at times as it is.

Yeah. I don't think a guy like you can just sit on the beach.

No.

I think you'd be miserable.

I think—

Like, miserable.

I think most people, one, I think this is stupid. They care how high their stack is in money. I never think about it. I mean, I have money.

Obviously.

I'm not— I'm not sitting there.

It's— it's ridiculous.

And I'm not, like, looking at that person, "Oh, he's got more." And I'm— I'm not— I don't do that.

Yeah.

I work really hard. It's going to be what it's going to be. I love the puzzle. That's what I love.

You have this great thing aligned where you quote Ben Franklin in the book. You're like, "I don't think you have any tattoos." And you said, "If I had any tattoos, I'd get across my knuckles. There is no little enemy."

Which is kind of a gangster line in the book, by the way. But that's not even my favorite Ben Franklin quote. My favorite Ben Franklin quote is— it's— I'm going to paraphrase. It's like, like, it's just how you spend your time because that's what life is made up of.

Life is not made up of the money. Life is made up of time. And then what we talked about in the fifth.

Oh, gosh.

Relationships.

You know when it's going to be— you know when it's going to be over? It could be over tomorrow.

Oh, you got hit by a—

You could have died 30 years ago.

Yeah.

Like, you know, if that guy was going a little faster.

You know, funny thing, I just did— I just did this podcast with Kara Swisher.

And I love Kara. I completely disagree with her. I love the fight. She's incredible. She was working for Rupert, I think it was. She had a stroke, flying over in coach. Didn't realize it. And that was liberating, as— as horrible as it was, when she was going to China, Hong Kong, for a conference of hers.

Like, who fucking knew? She didn't know. Like, and something— she fixed it and she's better and she's incredible. And she's— I love arguing with her because I completely disagree with her on a lot of things and I agree with her on some things.

Had a stroke? Like, you're— you were 50. Like, who knew?

This realization about, like, how I want to spend my time. Forget legacy. Forget trying to have the biggest stack.

Yeah.

Forget trying to be in Steve Jobs' world, the richest man in the cemetery, which makes no sense. This— this— this realization came after decades of therapy. You don't think it would have happened without doing the hallucinogenic.

No.

And then after the fact, you're calmer internally. You can go back to the Bezos idea where it's like, "Already you're on the field. You're on the— you need to be on the field."

Yeah.

But you need to learn how to get off the field.

Yeah.

So you're able to do that then.

Yeah.

But your work ethic doesn't go away.

No. I work constantly. You know, still. On vacation, of course you work because that whole concept that you're not working. You're working, but you're— you're also enjoying different things. You're— you're doing— I— I never— when I was growing up and starting the businesses, I never— I felt— I felt so bad when I took any time away from the work.

The problem is you can be so obsessed with your work, which obviously you were.

I'm obsessed.

Still.

Your schedule in the book. I— I literally thought I was like, "This guy is doing, like, 3D chess or 4D chess or something." Because when you go, I wake up, I do, like, 40 minutes of stretching. I do dynamic warm-ups.

I do sauna, red light therapy. It's like this two-hour thing. I go, "He's trying to get his competitors to waste two hours in the morning doing this bullshit while he's rolling calls."

You know, I said, "Can I taste them?" That whole— that morning routine, that is my drug. I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't do any of that. It makes me feel so good. And so I can go and— and be my best.

Other people have other things. It kind of, like, is the perfect start. One cup of coffee, ready to go. Just one other thing I want to talk to you about, and this is, again, the impact. Because you— you— you rep Mark Wahlberg.

Yeah.

Right? And then he's like, "Hey, Ari, I got this idea." Because he had this crew from the East Coast.

He has his entourage.

His entourage. And I was like.

See, I think Mark came up with it. It was either Mark or his manager, longtime manager Steve Lundzen, who's E, came up with— I don't remember which one of them came up with the entourage.

But it's the perfect name.

And then you wind up selling it,right?

Right.

And then you kind of forget about it,right?

Yeah. At the time. Yeah. Before it got rented.

But you didn't think. You had— there's no— again, it goes back to the fact that you like to stay flexible every day because you can't predict a lot of things. You had no idea the cultural impact that it was going to have.

I thought it was going to be completely negative on my career, my life, etc. Mark Wahlberg and Steve Levinson, his manager, said, "You don't realize it." Because the show started getting hot.

Yeah.

And he goes, "This is going to be the greatest thing that ever happened to you." And I completely didn't believe him. I thought it was horrible. My wife, my ex-wife, hated it. I would never watch it because it was Mrs.

Ari, Sunday night, in bed. I mean, I didn't want to go through any of that. I just started watching it. I've gone.

When?

I've gotten through two seasons.

Right.

Notright now. It's the first time. He's now just gotten fired or laid off, and he's started a new agency.

Okay. Hold on. But there's a—

I— I'm going to get to the rest of the rest of the seasons. I just watched this other, like, short interview you did, and they're, like, giving you lines of other people. And they're like, "Did you say it?

Who said this line?" And you're reading this and it's like, "This sounds like something I said." And then it was actually a line from Ari Gold. But in the book, you said after a while you couldn't.

No. It was leading. I was following.

So talk about this.

Yeah. Well, you know, you're sitting there. The show becomes a hit.

People are saying things to you from the show, which I'm not watching, and you're like, "Did I say that?" Right? And then you're a character of yourself as a person. You don't know, but it is opening doors. My brother's in the White House and— and a congressman also before that, a pretty big congressman.

And it just kind of, like, the full kind of volcano happens. And, you know, it— it was bizarre that— and I think it happened to a bunch of Mark's friends too that were characters. And it just was a bizarre event that people would come up and say, "Hug it out, bitch."

And I was like, "What the fuck?" You know? And then I would do it. You know? It was hor— it was great and horrible and funny and, like, what? Weird.

But it had a material, like, a huge financial impact to your business.

Because I could get anybody on the phone and I could— the— the puzzle pieces got easier because I could talk to anybody I wanted. They all picked up the phone. I could come up with stupid ideas. They would meet me.

I didn't know what the— what it was going to end up to, but it kind of helped in business. And it gave me people an impression, good, better, and different of me. Mainly good, of who I was.

Podcasts, to some degree, obviously, really everything back to the thing I'm obsessed with, playing a similar role in, like, when the guests come on in my show and some other friends.

They think they know who you are.

No, no. Well, no, no. To them. So obviously, I focus— hyperfocus on entrepreneurship. So you're an investor, you're an entrepreneur, you're a founder, you're a CEO, something like that. And they'll come on and then I'll hear from them later on.

They're like, "Every single meeting I go," he's like, "There's no such thing as a cold meeting anymore."

Yeah.

He's like, "They've all saw this."

That's a very good way to say it. There was no cold meeting.

And they're like, "It's crazy impactful." And then in some extreme cases, like, there's getting Brad Jacobs, who wrote this book called How to Make a Few Billion Dollars. He started eight separate billion-dollar companies. Then that book was so successful, I did a book review of it on my other podcast.

He wrote another book a year or two later, so it's called How to Make a Few More Billion. And in that book, he talks about the fact that two people didn't know who he was. I covered his book.

He raised $750 million from two people in my audience.

Right.

And he put it in— it's in writing. It's in his book. He's like, "I had—" because he had no idea the impact, like, podcasts would have.

Yeah.

And he's just like, "Well, this guy seems interesting. Let me go investigate what he's working on." There's a bunch of dealmakers in the audience. Oh, of course that's going to lead to it.

Right.

But, like, that idea was like, there's no such thing as a cold meeting anymore.

Yeah. For sure. I mean, actually, Jay R. says about it, you know, "Are you sure you want to go here and show all the fucking scabs?"

The book?

In the book, I said, "I don't know how to do it any other way." He goes, "Well, when you walk in a room, people are going to think they know you." And I said, "That's fine. I don't mind."

I mean, I had a little bit with Entourage and they, you know, but I'm okay with that. And now kids come up to me that are now young kids, still watching Entourage, and there's a whole new generation. And the good thing is, hopefully, they get out of the book and Entourage, you have agency for yourself.

You, you know, my own version of Art of War, and you go for it. I say this all the time. I never had a plan B. I don't know about you. In my life, it was— it was agency or die.

And I think now.

I'm going to be a social media as a—

No. This is what I'm doing and I'm going for it. And with all the troubles, as you know, it's hard building a business. And that's hopefully what people get out of it.

Jeff Bezos has this great line where he's like, "Plan B should be to make plan A work."

Yeah. Exactly. That's a good line.

Great. The book is awesome. Highly recommend it. Everybody listening should buy the hardcover, the audible. I'm really glad you wrote the book. I'm glad the freaking we got to hang out. I'm glad we got to meet now.

Thank you, man.

This was awesome. Thanks for taking the time.

Thanks, everybody.

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